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	<title>Comments on: Of Coders, Professional Programmers, Martial Arts and Ginger Cats</title>
	<link>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/</link>
	<description>Articles on VB.NET and Software Development Team Leadership</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: jfrankcarr</title>
		<link>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-459</link>
		<author>jfrankcarr</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-459</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your response OJ

Perhaps part of why I don't like doing programming the "hard way" is that is the way I learned back in the 80's when there weren't any fancy IDEs. Of course, I highly customized my text editor to make my work easier. If you've ever read Robert Heinlein's short story &lt;em&gt;The Tale of the Man Who Was Too Lazy to Fail&lt;/em&gt; in his book &lt;em&gt;Time Enough for Love&lt;/em&gt; you'll find part of my philosophy in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your response OJ</p>
<p>Perhaps part of why I don&#8217;t like doing programming the &#8220;hard way&#8221; is that is the way I learned back in the 80&#8217;s when there weren&#8217;t any fancy IDEs. Of course, I highly customized my text editor to make my work easier. If you&#8217;ve ever read Robert Heinlein&#8217;s short story <em>The Tale of the Man Who Was Too Lazy to Fail</em> in his book <em>Time Enough for Love</em> you&#8217;ll find part of my philosophy in it.</p>
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		<title>By: OJ</title>
		<link>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-439</link>
		<author>OJ</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-439</guid>
		<description>What I liked about the original post was the implication of a desire to be able to do your job (almost) regardless of the tools you do and don't have at your dispoal. I also liked the desire to understand what goes on behind the scenes, and to learn as much as possible about the field.

What I like about your response is that you indicate that use of such high level tools doesn't make you less of a developer, and that the use of the right tool for the job is what a good developer should be able to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I liked about the original post was the implication of a desire to be able to do your job (almost) regardless of the tools you do and don&#8217;t have at your dispoal. I also liked the desire to understand what goes on behind the scenes, and to learn as much as possible about the field.</p>
<p>What I like about your response is that you indicate that use of such high level tools doesn&#8217;t make you less of a developer, and that the use of the right tool for the job is what a good developer should be able to do.</p>
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		<title>By: jfrankcarr</title>
		<link>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-426</link>
		<author>jfrankcarr</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-426</guid>
		<description>Thanks Arnon

I agree that memorization does have its place. What I don't like to see is the encouraged cramming with the goal of passing a few tests to get a certification. (This problem extends beyond just programmer certification and well into the general educational system but that's for another time on a different blog.) I don't think that most people retain a significant amount of this knowledge much beyond the testing period nor, given the degree of change, does it remain current and valuable for more than a few years if they do retain it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Arnon</p>
<p>I agree that memorization does have its place. What I don&#8217;t like to see is the encouraged cramming with the goal of passing a few tests to get a certification. (This problem extends beyond just programmer certification and well into the general educational system but that&#8217;s for another time on a different blog.) I don&#8217;t think that most people retain a significant amount of this knowledge much beyond the testing period nor, given the degree of change, does it remain current and valuable for more than a few years if they do retain it.</p>
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		<title>By: Arnon Rotem-Gal-Oz</title>
		<link>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-422</link>
		<author>Arnon Rotem-Gal-Oz</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-422</guid>
		<description>I think that the problem of mastering and memorizing the language is moot - since you can solve the same problem by accepting a mindset that assumes that anything which is not your core logic already exists either on the platform (.NET, J2EE app server) or on other libraries (3rd party controls, Open source projects etc) and then spend the few minutes needed to search it over (the first time or so). When you'd see the same problem again you'd already know

What you get by memorizing is that you slow yourself as you learn, and then you may become a little faster - the problem is you'd be missing stuff you didn't learn (things created by others which are not part of the platform). not to mention that at the end of the day it isn't really about lines of code. It is about working, maintainable and tested lines of code which really factor out the time saves on initial coding

Arnon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the problem of mastering and memorizing the language is moot - since you can solve the same problem by accepting a mindset that assumes that anything which is not your core logic already exists either on the platform (.NET, J2EE app server) or on other libraries (3rd party controls, Open source projects etc) and then spend the few minutes needed to search it over (the first time or so). When you&#8217;d see the same problem again you&#8217;d already know</p>
<p>What you get by memorizing is that you slow yourself as you learn, and then you may become a little faster - the problem is you&#8217;d be missing stuff you didn&#8217;t learn (things created by others which are not part of the platform). not to mention that at the end of the day it isn&#8217;t really about lines of code. It is about working, maintainable and tested lines of code which really factor out the time saves on initial coding</p>
<p>Arnon</p>
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		<title>By: jfrankcarr</title>
		<link>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-407</link>
		<author>jfrankcarr</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-407</guid>
		<description>Thanks Andrejs 

My thinking is to use all of the tools and resources available, especially if you're a working professional. Today's IDEs make it easy for anyone with decent programming skills and experience to pick up a new language and be productive in it quickly. I don't consider them crutches but very useful tools for rapid discovery. Unless one wants to be a "language lawyer" in a particular language there really isn't a need to learn every nuance of it by heart since massive amounts of reference material is instantly available at your fingertips.

Learning 'the hard way' is OK for an absolute beginner in an academic environment studying the basics but, if one is out in the real world you hopefully have already learned these lessons. Maybe that's what David was getting at, that he's met people who didn't learn these lessons the first time around. I agree with him on that point, if that's the case. If one doesn't have the fundamentals down they won't be an effective programmer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Andrejs </p>
<p>My thinking is to use all of the tools and resources available, especially if you&#8217;re a working professional. Today&#8217;s IDEs make it easy for anyone with decent programming skills and experience to pick up a new language and be productive in it quickly. I don&#8217;t consider them crutches but very useful tools for rapid discovery. Unless one wants to be a &#8220;language lawyer&#8221; in a particular language there really isn&#8217;t a need to learn every nuance of it by heart since massive amounts of reference material is instantly available at your fingertips.</p>
<p>Learning &#8216;the hard way&#8217; is OK for an absolute beginner in an academic environment studying the basics but, if one is out in the real world you hopefully have already learned these lessons. Maybe that&#8217;s what David was getting at, that he&#8217;s met people who didn&#8217;t learn these lessons the first time around. I agree with him on that point, if that&#8217;s the case. If one doesn&#8217;t have the fundamentals down they won&#8217;t be an effective programmer.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrejs</title>
		<link>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-404</link>
		<author>Andrejs</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/16/of-coders-professional-programmers-martial-arts-and-ginger-cats/#comment-404</guid>
		<description>It is a nice response:)

But I would like to add that I agree to both of you. The reason why I agree to David is: programming in text redactor while you are &lt;b&gt;learning&lt;/b&gt; to program can help you very much. With this approach you can learn ins and outs, and know the &lt;i&gt;language&lt;/i&gt; by heart.

On the other hand, the reason why I agree to you is, that you need to learn programming not the language.

I could say that I am Java programmer, but I could do programming in C# with a &lt;i&gt;manual&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;API documentation&lt;/i&gt; but I would be dead slow...

You need to be and know a little from both :)

P.S. Excuse me for my English</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a nice response:)</p>
<p>But I would like to add that I agree to both of you. The reason why I agree to David is: programming in text redactor while you are <b>learning</b> to program can help you very much. With this approach you can learn ins and outs, and know the <i>language</i> by heart.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the reason why I agree to you is, that you need to learn programming not the language.</p>
<p>I could say that I am Java programmer, but I could do programming in C# with a <i>manual</i> and <i>API documentation</i> but I would be dead slow&#8230;</p>
<p>You need to be and know a little from both :)</p>
<p>P.S. Excuse me for my English</p>
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